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Thread: Failure.

  1. #1
    RacerX's Avatar
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    Default Failure.

    been Kicking around in the Foundry the last week or so. my lil mission idea actually comes from a Retro game, called Tenchu stealth assassin. If you have never played it, i recommend it (great game). So in the retro game the player must reach his target which is safely tucked away in the heart of a heavily guarded complex without being detected.

    in my translation, this comes down to a complex with patroling guards and lookouts, with a "minefield" of reachpoints.
    The boundries of the reachpoints form a path which will allow the player to move.each point feeds to a dialog of "you have been discovered" which i can set to failure, but nothing happens.. any ideas how i can link this so that it will cause mission failure? or am i just missing something simple? either way i could use some help on this one please.
    In the eye of the mind,
    all Time, Space and Possibilities,
    are one
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    Racer@xracerx337x

  2. #2

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    It has been a while since I have been in the foundry and am not sure if this would still work....

    but I would try using lots of "go to" markers on the map. then dialog trees that say "you have been spotted" and are triggered by the "go to" markers. Then I would have a crap load of enemy mobs spawn to kill the player if they hit one of these markers. You could have the enemy mods spawn by having their "state" go from "invisible" to "visible" with the dialog tree as a trigger. Don't add any of these markers as a part of the story just add them to the map. Then add the final end of the minefield "go to" marker as the trigger to move on the story.

    Also, instead of triggering the enemy mobs you could trigger some explosion assets, but I don't think they will kill the player.

    BTW - good to see that some people are still willing to keep plugging away at the Foundry. Hopefully they will give some love to this feature.
    Last edited by Altexist; 2nd January 2014 at 12:35 PM.

  3. #3

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    You could also set some npcs behind invisible walls near your "target" in the middle. Have the failure / discovery dialogue options remove those invisible walls. Pop up a message about the target trying to escape.....when the NPCs kill the target, the mission fails.

    Make sure to scale the enemy of the target appropriately and of the correct faction to attack the target. You will want him to die relatively fast I'm guessing.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Darkshadow View Post
    You could also set some npcs behind invisible walls near your "target" in the middle. Have the failure / discovery dialogue options remove those invisible walls. Pop up a message about the target trying to escape.....when the NPCs kill the target, the mission fails.

    Make sure to scale the enemy of the target appropriately and of the correct faction to attack the target. You will want him to die relatively fast I'm guessing.
    While an invisible wall will not let enemy NPCs shoot or get to you, they can still see through the wall. if they see you they will get all squirrelly and jump around and try to get to you. they may work there way through gaps in poorly placed walls. And sometimes they can perform a "super jump" and get over the wall.... at least they use to.. not sure what state the NPC pathing algorithm is in now.

    I do wish they would add some fun "failure" options to the foundry.... ... like must get from Point A to point B in a certain amount of time..... but not agro any NPCs..... must not die before get to end of map..... must keep a NPC alive till the end..... must defend an object from being destroyed by NPCs....... hell I would like to see more of these types of things in the STO game play in general.

    and add some of these into PVP!!??! dare to dream...
    Last edited by Altexist; 2nd January 2014 at 02:41 PM.

  5. #5
    RacerX's Avatar
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    Thanks for the Input, i'll have time this weekend to give both options a try.

    Altexist.. I have to agree with you, failure is a lacking component in the foundry and other areas of the game. without an "option to fail" things can grow stagnate pretty fast. i have played far to many Foundry Missions where "failure was not an option". as corny as that sounds it is true. it seems that most foundry missions are follow the bread crumbs, the bouncing ball or just plain spoon fed plots to the player. "your stranded on a island.. what do you do? well let me look over here at my objective list and see".
    Some of the things i try to do "probly why my foundrys take so long" is try to set a general objective, then allow the player to choose a path, by setting forth options that "could" lead to the general objective. so my example would be like this.. Your stranded on an island..what do you do? the objective list says "escape", but not how. you may collect wood and build a raft, or build a signal fire, you may have to collect other materials. all of these options can be on the island, but only one leads to the objective. you may get it on the first try, or the second, or you may be on this island for awhile. I have also use the pen and paper philosophy of "all roads lead to Rome" so no matter which option you choose, it will lead to the objective. in this case the story changes but the end is always the same. i got off the island by building a raft, but you may have built a signal fire, and Irish may have looked for food and found a communications device. with this philosophy the story has the same begining and the same ending but the body is different, allowing each player "their version" without multiple endings.
    But working with actual mission failure is somewhat new to me ( i haven't toyed with it much), but figuring out how to "make a failure" opens up several new possiblities for my storytelling.
    In the eye of the mind,
    all Time, Space and Possibilities,
    are one
    .


    Racer@xracerx337x

  6. #6

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    If you go with the idea of using invisible walls to contain NPCs that will kill your target and fail the mission you might want to put a roof over them (another invisible wall) so that they don't go wandering.

    You could also set a reach marker in the final area so that once the player gets to that point the floor below those NPCs disappears and they drop out of the map. That is best accomplished by elevating the entire map to begin with by a couple of hundred points on the y axis.

    I've used that technique previously to create "random" timers. In one case I placed a completely closed off "box" way up in the sky out of view from the ground map. Inside that box I placed opposite faction NPCs who were separated by an invisible wall. I then placed a reach marker down inside the mission map. Once the player reached that point the invisible wall would drop and the NPCs would begin to fight. It was impossible to tell when the last one on the deliberately weakened faction would die making the "timer" random.

    I had a map objective linked to the death of that NPC group and a text warning about the bomb being armed. The idea was that the player only had a short time to get to that bomb once the warning was sent. That part was then different for each playthrough as there was no way for even me to know how long was left before the bomb exploded and the player was screwed.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Darkshadow View Post
    If you go with the idea of using invisible walls to contain NPCs that will kill your target and fail the mission you might want to put a roof over them (another invisible wall) so that they don't go wandering.

    You could also set a reach marker in the final area so that once the player gets to that point the floor below those NPCs disappears and they drop out of the map. That is best accomplished by elevating the entire map to begin with by a couple of hundred points on the y axis.

    I've used that technique previously to create "random" timers. In one case I placed a completely closed off "box" way up in the sky out of view from the ground map. Inside that box I placed opposite faction NPCs who were separated by an invisible wall. I then placed a reach marker down inside the mission map. Once the player reached that point the invisible wall would drop and the NPCs would begin to fight. It was impossible to tell when the last one on the deliberately weakened faction would die making the "timer" random.

    I had a map objective linked to the death of that NPC group and a text warning about the bomb being armed. The idea was that the player only had a short time to get to that bomb once the warning was sent. That part was then different for each playthrough as there was no way for even me to know how long was left before the bomb exploded and the player was screwed.
    "reach markers" .... d'oh. that is what I mean by "go to" markers. I forgot what they were called. been a long time since I used the tool.. I do miss it.


    as for using NPCs as a timer..... this is a cool idea. I remember Kirkfat's video about it. it shows how creative players can be.... but maybe Cryptic should JUST ADDED A TIMER TOOL!


    Quote Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
    Thanks for the Input, i'll have time this weekend to give both options a try.

    Altexist.. I have to agree with you, failure is a lacking component in the foundry and other areas of the game. without an "option to fail" things can grow stagnate pretty fast. i have played far to many Foundry Missions where "failure was not an option". as corny as that sounds it is true. it seems that most foundry missions are follow the bread crumbs, the bouncing ball or just plain spoon fed plots to the player. "your stranded on a island.. what do you do? well let me look over here at my objective list and see".
    This touches on, IHMO, one of the big overall flaws in design approach that Cryptic has to game design... there is no way to fail at all! More and more I am being drawn to games that have some sort of death penalty. I know that some people hate this, but for me every time a suffer a loss in a game, I go back and learn how to play the game better and get more into the game. I have played some games with a good balanced death penalty.. like X-com or State of Decay. These are games where you build up a crew of characters and if one of them dies... they die... you can t get them back. you have to retrain a new one. It's a loss but not a game crushing loss. I would like to see stuff like this in STO. maybe with a loss of "leveled up" BOs or ships. a little like the star system in Champ.... but I would want to see it more complex....these would also help the economy.


    As for the "open world" game play... that is another thing STO needs more work on. I have been playing State of Decay (good game.) it's a open world zombie game. There is a lot of grinding (searching for supplies, bashing zombies over the head.) but it does not feel grindy cause the I am always looking for stuff in a new part of the map... the time of day brings out more or less zombies .. and I pick which order i take on missions. I would love to see more of this stuff in STO or tools to let players make maps that allow you to do your own thing and explore a map in your own way....

    here's hoping there is some more of this in 2014....

  8. #8
    RacerX's Avatar
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    As for timers..
    some of the stuff i have toyed with is a "tower of power" this is simular to your "box" in the sky except mine is a tower underground. but the tower is a multi level building (3 to 5 floors or more). on each level is the basic timer, but i can link death to the next timer and so on forming a cascade that sets off different functions on a map. i.e. level one triggers quakes, lvl2 trigers lava flow, lvl3 triggers npcs running for life, lvl4 triggers enemy spawn, i LOVE the tower with it i can turn a map into a flowing maze that changes, cutting players off from the objective. this was a problem for me, since i had no idea where the player would be, i could not set up some form of escape or mission failure. But with new ideas in hand i think i can fix it.

    PS you can link several towers together forming an underground circuit board. which can be used to start a change, stop it, then reverse it. and from there your only limited by your imagination..and the laws of physics which i think are optional
    In the eye of the mind,
    all Time, Space and Possibilities,
    are one
    .


    Racer@xracerx337x

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